Sunday, November 22, 2009

Acting White: Black Women Series - Weight, Body Fat and Attractiveness

I begin by admitting that I lack my usual confidence in what I think I might know objectively about the relationship of body fat to attractiveness. The factors are complex and I have not found clear and convincing data on the role this might play in the mating disparities that black women face. Nevertheless, to ignore this would discount a logic wherein body fat-driven weight differences influence how men and women, especially black men, come to view and respond to each other.

From earlier discussion, I presented that black men are unique in placing their group’s women at the bottom of the attractiveness list of all females, unlike any other ethnicity. Significant empirical evidence of this is found here. Uniqueness in the weight relationship of black women and men stands out. I will offer simply, that the lessening gap between black women’s weight and musculature relative to black men makes black women less dependent, and controllable, and thereby challenging to a fundamental male-female dynamic that has existed for thousands of years.

In every ethnic group, except blacks, the males are larger than the females, during prime mating years, 20-39. The equatorial West African ancestry of black women provided for robust musculature and temperament that had them sharing a greater historical load of the available food gathering and defense demands, over time, while men fulfilled their critical hunter role. If we transport this ancestry to a safe, food-abundant and sedentary lifestyle, you have an environment where black women are simply more able, individually, and willing to get along without black men and their male-centered demands. This does not mean that this is the best for the black family and overall black advancement.

So I guess I am saying weight analysis is one example of the paradox US blacks suffer, as the result of the abrupt movement from Africa to America. Reaction to our environment influences a relationship (similarity in physical status), thereby encouraging a dynamic that tears the fabric of instinctive male-female symbiosis. But is it better to have greater black-male dominance and togetherness, at the cost of black female independence/sovereignty? Without thinking too much I would say no, except when I look at the challenged state of the black community. I am just not sure. My status as a black male begs me to recuse myself from a decision only black women can/should make for and about themselves, although we all bear the result.

Black male-female education attainment disparities are another influence to this paradox challenging US blacks, which I will explore next.

James C. Collier

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24 comments:

Anonymous said...

These numbers are false, that would mean that out 17% of USA population which is Black, 47% of Blackmen are choosing women other than Black Women!

James C. Collier said...

@Anon 6:45, no where in the OKCupid data is support for your conclusion expressed. WADR, it is your conclusion that is false.

Anonymous said...

Your evidence is based on your sites data, I question the validity of the data collection process. Because it does not take into account all the black people in the United States.

So I agree with Anon 6:45 ascertain that the numbers are incorrect, based on the sample
size! I question the validity of your sample size to determine your results!

So be careful on what you consider empirical, so I question your scientific methodology!

James C. Collier said...

OKCupid's synthesis of reply's from over one million members was never presented as scientific, but it does meet the definition of empirical (observed). It is also consistent with low black marriage rates, high out-of-wedlock births, obesity and weight disparities, along with anecdotal discourse (complaints) of black women and men about each other. You guys need to get out of the weeds.

Anonymous said...

@James C.
Oxford English Dictionary states “In matters of art or practice: That is guided by mere experience, without scientific knowledge; also of methods, expedients, etc. Often in opprobrious sense transf. from 2: Ignorantly presumptuous, resembling, or characteristic of, a charlatan.” A layperson, could inference your study was derived from scientific methodology.
Consequently, Black folks are inundated by studies predicated on observations presented to validate the perception of the author.

lincolnperry said...

Mr. Collier are you saying that because the sisters are fatter, than other women in other cultures, they are less likely to be subjugated. The domineering overbearing black female stereotype that Monique likes to promulgate. My impression is that this is a societal holdover from slavery, the elevation of the mammy in the social hierarchy, studies show that black female managers tend to have more body density than there white female counterparts.

This is why some black males gravitate to smaller women of other ethnicities?

James C. Collier said...

lincolnperry, the basis of the nuclear family is male-female symbiosis (balanced cross dependence). If this is off, for any reason, group advancement will take a hit as offspring are disenfranchised. To their credit and detriment (the paradox), Blk women are more self-sufficient, enhancing the role of blk males as lesser (disposable/interchangeable) sperm donors. The scientific and empirical evidence of this is all around us.

Anonymous said...

But if you don't believe in the natural order of things because you're an atheist or worship an autonomous god then there is no problem. Literally, THERE IS NO PROBLEMS at all. Just unfulfilled wants and desires that call out for a global solution. That solution is to simply make marriage and procreation meaningless via radical autonomization.

The primary way liberalism advances itself is by simply proclaiming a need for more liberalism. If black women who are childless and manless are just victims of cicumstance then the obvious solution is more liberalism. But liberalism is exactly why more black women are manless and childless. So what's the solution other than a return to more traditional ways?

lincolnperry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lincolnperry said...

Mr Collier
thats so academic and condessing, I have travelled extensively, and base my ruminations on my social, and cultural observations..

I disagree with the body fat disbursement, I find this the case amongst women of colour in Europe, Africa, and parts South America. People of colour tend to be more sedentary in many cases, but view the consumpstion of food differently. Body density is more readily accepted.
@Anon 2:02
Absolutely, Mr Collier tends to be a radicalism. This social disaparity only exist in Western White Male dominated cultures! Professionally black women are elevated on the social heirarchy
This social advancement promulgated by white women feminist, and social liberalism
has been detrimental to the black male and female relationships within the community!

Anonymous said...

"This social advancement promulgated by white women feminist, and social liberalism has been detrimental to the black male and female relationships within the community!"

Hey, I hate white feminists and liberals as much as anyone... but as long as blacks keep allying with them in monolithically supporting the Democrats, I have little sympathy for whatever ills they might cause to the black community.

Sonny said...

Mr. Collier have you considered that blacks that find other blacks most attractive, would not sign up for a mixed online dating site. But would rather sign up for a predominantly black dating site like blackpeoplemeet.com?
This would also lend one to think that the blacks who did use okcupid, a mixed dating site, would in fact have predominantly mixed messages being passed. I wonder what the messaging results of blackpeoplemeet.com look like.

The Yogurt King said...

Sonny has a very good point - if a black man finds black women to be the primary choice he won't sign up for such a site - in other words, you can include and interpret in the data what isn't there. also, there are going to be whites that prefer only whites, but since there is no "white only site" that will also skew the data.

as well, there are sites for just about every other ethnicity. so indian women, asian men, etc, interested in exclusively their own race will also fall under your critique.

again, you can't come to such a conclusive analysis when you are missing an enormous amount of data from race exclusive sites. What your doing here is akin to calculating how many phone calls Japanese women get from white men, black men, and asian men without looking at all at the phone records in Japan.

James C. Collier said...

Sonny & Yogurt King, I agree that having data from exclusive sites would be helpful, but I do not see how mixed sites invalidate the behavior of individuals of any specific ethinicity. We live in a mixed society, but where we can express preference, and as long as OKCupid facillitates this same expression in their mixed site, the data would seem valid. What is most interesting about OKCupid is that black men and women who have an otherwise high compatibility rating, defy this rating in dating action (more than other ethnicities). Some might say that black men go to mixed sites to express a preference for non-black women, but my goal here is to examine what factors of attraction re: black women might be behind such behavior (beyond status quo conclusions) - and what we might learn from it. I think this is a valid vein of discussion, via the state of the black family and/or the romantic laments of black women.

Sonny said...

Hello James, let me start by saying nice topic. Very interesting to draw this out. Now to elaborate more on my point about your data. You claim that black men are unique in that they find their women less attractive than other men find their women. You use the data from OKCupid to back up this claim. To prove that this claim is invalid and that the is being misrepresented, all we would need to do is switch sites. If we used the messaging data from blackpeoplemeet.com, it would show an overwhelming attractiveness by black men toward black women. Also I might add, that I would imagine the white males on blackpeoplemeet.com would by in large message black women more than white women, illustrating that white males find their women unattractive.

My scenario also explains why black men and women on OKCupid, in spite of their high compatibility rating, still do not seek each other. They simply are not interested in someone of the same race, hence the mixed dating site.

Now to discuss the size of black women, their level of attractiveness from black males and its relationship to the state of the black family. My first thought is, is the state of the black family an indication of the attractiveness of black males toward black females? I think not, the state of the black family is more an issue of black men not being able to commit to one women, for whatever reason (I have some ideas why – but later). The fact that the black population is increasing on normal proportions is proof that black men find their women attractive and are choosing to be in relationships with them, just not marriage. Not to mention, you don’t marry and make a life with every woman you’re attracted to. In order for your conclusion to be true then black men would have to be choosing to marry or create families with women of other races over their own, which is not the case. They aren’t choosing women to marry, period. As a result, naturally black women would suffer.

One of your questions is, what role do black women play in this decision that black men make not to marry and settle down? Whether they contribute via weight, their ability to be independent or their attitude. Personally I don’t think any of it contributes, I blame it all on the male, and when one of the above is cited, I call it a copout. Simply because, every women especially a black women has the potential to be difficult to deal with. However every woman has that one man that can earn her respect and calm her down. I think black men don’t put themselves in that position to be that man, financially, mentally and emotionally.

Black women are strong, independent and resilient. To the right man these are assets, because he is also strong independent and resilient. The problem comes when he lacks the knowledge to earn enough money to support her, a family and fund the dreams of their family. When he lacks the confidence or was never taught to occupy the role of a male. Lastly when he lacks the maturity to interact with people in confrontational situations. These things just happen to be major issues in the black community amongst males due to the oppression that they have faced. When these things were taught in the black community the opportunities to were very lacking, and now that the opportunities are there, these things aren’t taught. The progress that black males are making toward these fundamental life functions are slow, but steady. At some point, there will be more educated black males that can educate their children and this cycle will break.


Side note: please explain how you come to the conclusion that only black women are larger than black men during their prime mating years. I also contend that the size of the black woman is not related to her independence. Human nature, the will to survive makes her independent. Just as if it were white women, who I guess according to your conclusions are smaller and weaker than black women, would strive to survive as well, in the absence of responsible white males, or do you think since they are smaller they would die off?

Anonymous said...

This might help. Here's a much more scientific study that directly contradicts the OK Cupid data.

http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/single-female-seeking-same-race-male/

The problem is that the preferences of self selected groups absolutely cannot be applied to EVERYONE in the general population. Its like looking at a dating site in South Africa that has an overwhelming number of black participants, and applying the preferences of the few white members to the white South African population as a whole.

Also, studies of online dating may be a poor indicator in general. A scientific study would have to take into account the types of people that would use online dating, what they tend to be looking for, whether attraction choices are different in person from when one is checking boxes (which I've found to be a resounding YES!), etc.

Sheena said...

I live in the city and all of the black men date white/asian/latino women. I was brought up in the suburbs and it was the same way.

Dating said...

I think this is a valid vein of discussion, via the state of the black family and/or the romantic laments of black women.

Johnathan said...

When i found this discussion i coouldn't help but comment on it, as i think im about as ideal an example of one type of behavior under discussion (black men choosing to date and marry outside thier race).

The reasons being this: I am a 27 year old black male, married to my wife for about eight months now, though we have had a relationship for several years before that. Prior to marrying her, i dated and had a child with an asian woman (korean to be exact), and thus far in my entire life i have been romantically involved with exactly two black females, one of which was when i was fourteen years old and thus barely counts, the other when i was nineteen and had just begun to grow into adulthood.

I should also mention that nineteen was also the age at which i joined the military, and i have spent two-thirds of my adult life since then enlisted in the U.S. military, so my income is definitely sufficient to support a family. I like to think im a reasonably intelligent man who isn't bad-looking, and my personality isn't completely unattractive.

Having said all this, my entire adult life not a single black woman has ever so much as approached me to say hello unless she was a relative or trying to sell me something, and one day some years ago i realized that i had only really seriously dated non-black women and it didn't bother me one bit. Heres why:

I have nothing in common with black women except being black. My preferences in nearly every area run against typical black culture, from musical tastes to political ideas and my views on social issues. And don't mistake me, i love my mother and all the wonderful, intelligent black women who made me the man i am today, but when i imagine marrying or even seriously dating a woman like them i just get completely turned off. My attraction meter drops to zero, and i have an overwhelming desire to break contact and move on to another more desirable female.

I don't find the typical 'sassy' black female attitude attractive at all, and before anyone makes the claim it isn't body type that repels me because my caucasian wife is a bigger girl from the boondocks of virginia who does not believe in missing meals. What it ultimately comes down to is...black women don't offer me anything i can't get more of and better from other races, and with less annoying attitude. I think thats what does it - why deal with that when you can meet physically attractive women of other races who are everything you want and easier to deal with?

-SPC Johnathan Collier, U.S. Army (No relation to the author - I think)

Anonymous said...

When i found this discussion i coouldn't help but comment on it, as i think im about as ideal an example of one type of behavior under discussion (black men choosing to date and marry outside thier race).

The reasons being this: I am a 27 year old black male, married to my wife for about eight months now, though we have had a relationship for several years before that. Prior to marrying her, i dated and had a child with an asian woman (korean to be exact), and thus far in my entire life i have been romantically involved with exactly two black females, one of which was when i was fourteen years old and thus barely counts, the other when i was nineteen and had just begun to grow into adulthood.

I should also mention that nineteen was also the age at which i joined the military, and i have spent two-thirds of my adult life since then enlisted in the U.S. military, so my income is definitely sufficient to support a family. I like to think im a reasonably intelligent man who isn't bad-looking, and my personality isn't completely unattractive.

Having said all this, my entire adult life not a single black woman has ever so much as approached me to say hello unless she was a relative or trying to sell me something, and one day some years ago i realized that i had only really seriously dated non-black women and it didn't bother me one bit. Heres why:

I have nothing in common with black women except being black. My preferences in nearly every area run against typical black culture, from musical tastes to political ideas and my views on social issues. And don't mistake me, i love my mother and all the wonderful, intelligent black women who made me the man i am today, but when i imagine marrying or even seriously dating a woman like them i just get completely turned off. My attraction meter drops to zero, and i have an overwhelming desire to break contact and move on to another more desirable female.

I don't find the typical 'sassy' black female attitude attractive at all, and before anyone makes the claim it isn't body type that repels me because my caucasian wife is a bigger girl from the boondocks of virginia who does not believe in missing meals. What it ultimately comes down to is...black women don't offer me anything i can't get more of and better from other races, and with less annoying attitude. I think thats what does it - why deal with that when you can meet physically attractive women of other races who are everything you want and easier to deal with?

-SPC Johnathan Collier, U.S. Army (No relation to the author - I think)

Anonymous said...

Johnathan you sound absolutely ridiculous. I know black guys like you, who make the same claims about black women as you, and the one thing I see that you all have in common is you're insecure and have absolutely zero game to approach black women.

I bet you're one of these black guys who hangs out with all white people and has bought into all the stereo types of black women (probably black men too).

I'm not against interracial dating at all, I think you love who loves you. However your real issue is not about race but self hatred. You need to get in counseling and figure out why you don't like yourself. Then you may be able to like others like you.

Any real man knows that any women can have an attitude.
I'm sure they issue you guys guns in the Army. You need to use yours to shoot yourself.

Anonymous said...

SPC Collier I think anon 10 26 just made your point for you and very well I might add.

Makes me want run out and find a woman just like her....

not if she were the last woman on earth.......

Anonymous said...

(This is anon - the one who suggested Collier shoot himself.)
Uuuhh, I'm a black male and I grew up in the Midwest. I have 6 brothers and we all dated white girls all as did all our black friends. We went to an upper middle class high school and there wasn't a large selection of black girls. I know plenty of black guys who in that situation just never learned to talk or approach black women and now they are petrified of them.
Most of them don’t even really know any.

Now I'm 37 and live in a upper middle class predominantly white suburban area. I've been married to a beautiful black women for 16 years. Our sons date white girls, and as I said in the previous post, I don't mind interracial dating.

I just don't like when black guys try to blame their insecurities and low self esteem off on all black women being a certain way as to why he can't get one. It’s basically being racist against your own race.

Collier has so little experience with black women that he has bought a stereo type. I was being mean when I said “shoot yourself” and I apologize. But I was serious that he needs counseling.

How ridiculous is it to say that all black women have attitudes. He probably believes that all black people eat watermelon and drink grape kool-aid.

Anonymous said...

(This is anon - the one who suggested Collier shoot himself.)
Uuuhh, I'm a black male and I grew up in the Midwest. I have 6 brothers and we all dated white girls all as did all our black friends. We went to an upper middle class high school and there wasn't a large selection of black girls. I know plenty of black guys who in that situation just never learned to talk or approach black women and now they are petrified of them.
Most of them don’t even really know any.

Now I'm 37 and live in a upper middle class predominantly white suburban area. I've been married to a beautiful black women for 16 years. Our sons date white girls, and as I said in the previous post, I don't mind interracial dating.

I just don't like when black guys try to blame their insecurities and low self esteem off on all black women being a certain way as to why he can't get one. It’s basically being racist against your own race.

Collier has so little experience with black women that he has bought a stereo type. I was being mean when I said “shoot yourself” and I apologize. But I was serious that he needs counseling.

How ridiculous is it to say that all black women have attitudes. He probably believes that all black people eat watermelon and drink grape kool-aid.